Mark - You are onto something and should pick up a copy of my first book, The Laws of Physics Are On My Side (2013). I use a very simple system to calculate inputs and outputs. This was an approach pioneered by the Pimentels and Robert Rodale in the 1970s. My EROI during my time as a market gardener in the US was around 2.50:1 to 3.50:1. This was achieved by using small amounts of gasoline for a walk-behnd tiller and plenty of manual labor. I am retired now and live in southern France, but my third book, Paradigms for Adaptation, came out in January 2024. This builds on my first two books. Good luck with your bees.
Thanks Walter. Im familiar with David Pimentel's work - I used his methodology in my own thesis which was to calculate the EROI of typical Irish beef farm (it came to about 4 fossil fuel calories for every calorie of food just on the farm. I just read a synopsis of your book, sounds very interesting. I shall certainly pick up a copy.
Thank you. Hope you find it a good read. I just finished shucking 38 pounds of dry beans, which is more than enough to feed us for a year. My winter wheat is up and I have lots of corn left after the chevreuil (roe deer) had their fill. They jump right over my electric fence for the sanglier (wild pigs). If you are willing to post a copy of your thesis as a PDF on this site I would like to read it.
Yes, the definition of sustainable is easy, though it's not what was stated here. "Sustainable" without any time qualifier (e.g. "for 10 years") means it can be sustained indefinitely. Obviously, there can be unforeseen environmental factors that can end some activity which is otherwise sustainable but we can't really do much about those.
So for something to be sustainable, it must not consume any resource beyond its renewal rate and not generate wastes into the environment beyond the rate that the environment can assimilate that waste. In terms of resources, any use of non-renewable resources renders the activity unsustainable, except where the resource is, impossibly, recycled perfectly. So it's not just renewable energy. In fact, renewable energy, as we understand it in our industrial world is not renewable because it relies on non-renewable infrastructure.
Sadly, it's not even possible to say some form of agriculture is sustainable, if it is embedded in an unsustainable society. So any inputs to the process, and any inputs to the inputs to the process need to be renewable and at a rate below the renewal rate for the inputs.
The word is certainly flung around with abandon, in situations where it makes no sense. And we often see "more sustainable" which is meaningless. At best, it means "less environmentally damaging" but still not sustainable.
I agree that renewable energy isn't renewable yet, and may never be. Wind turbines and solar panels are non-renewable renewable energy harvesters to use Tim Watkins' terminology. In the long run, agriculture by any means may not be possible. Agriculture was only possible because 10,000 years ago CO2 levels stabilised, meaning climate stabilised. It is now destabilising and may do so for millennia. John Gowdy has a paper called Our hunter-gatherer future, well worth a read.
I agree that hunting and gathering will be the normal way that humans will obtain their nutrition in the future. How we transition to that future is unknown. It will certainly be with a much lower population, perhaps through cannibalism. If humans are still around, there may be some point in the future that they will try some form of agriculture again, if the climate allows. Humans will forget what it did to the biosphere; after all, we know what it's doing now but are still trying to do more. So-called renewables are just a way to continue the destruction.
10 to 1 is a very rough average across various food types. David Pimental found it was 40 to 1 for beef. It's lower in Ireland where I am as cattle are fed at pasture. On my own farm it's 4 to 1 farm to gate for beef. There's no standard methodology for EROI so results are vary wildly. Agree plant based food production is better and would return a positive EROI if using regenerative practices - my thesis examined this very topic.
This is a nonsense calculation as different foods require very different amounts of fossil fuels and fertilisers - with eating directly from the ground- significantly less than animal products.
Eating beef is absolutely unsustainable- but if the whole world was regenerative organic plant based (alot more people would work in agriculture)- it might be a very different story
This is a nonsense calculation as different foods require very different amounts of fossil fuels and fertilisers - with eating directly from the ground- significantly less than animal products.
Eating beef is absolutely unsustainable- but if the whole world was regenerative organic plant based (alot more people would work in agriculture)- it might be a very different story
Mark - You are onto something and should pick up a copy of my first book, The Laws of Physics Are On My Side (2013). I use a very simple system to calculate inputs and outputs. This was an approach pioneered by the Pimentels and Robert Rodale in the 1970s. My EROI during my time as a market gardener in the US was around 2.50:1 to 3.50:1. This was achieved by using small amounts of gasoline for a walk-behnd tiller and plenty of manual labor. I am retired now and live in southern France, but my third book, Paradigms for Adaptation, came out in January 2024. This builds on my first two books. Good luck with your bees.
Walter Haugen
Thanks Walter. Im familiar with David Pimentel's work - I used his methodology in my own thesis which was to calculate the EROI of typical Irish beef farm (it came to about 4 fossil fuel calories for every calorie of food just on the farm. I just read a synopsis of your book, sounds very interesting. I shall certainly pick up a copy.
Thank you. Hope you find it a good read. I just finished shucking 38 pounds of dry beans, which is more than enough to feed us for a year. My winter wheat is up and I have lots of corn left after the chevreuil (roe deer) had their fill. They jump right over my electric fence for the sanglier (wild pigs). If you are willing to post a copy of your thesis as a PDF on this site I would like to read it.
That sounds like a lovely setup you have there. Have you a website or somewhere where you're documenting this? I will DM you my thesis
Yes, the definition of sustainable is easy, though it's not what was stated here. "Sustainable" without any time qualifier (e.g. "for 10 years") means it can be sustained indefinitely. Obviously, there can be unforeseen environmental factors that can end some activity which is otherwise sustainable but we can't really do much about those.
So for something to be sustainable, it must not consume any resource beyond its renewal rate and not generate wastes into the environment beyond the rate that the environment can assimilate that waste. In terms of resources, any use of non-renewable resources renders the activity unsustainable, except where the resource is, impossibly, recycled perfectly. So it's not just renewable energy. In fact, renewable energy, as we understand it in our industrial world is not renewable because it relies on non-renewable infrastructure.
Sadly, it's not even possible to say some form of agriculture is sustainable, if it is embedded in an unsustainable society. So any inputs to the process, and any inputs to the inputs to the process need to be renewable and at a rate below the renewal rate for the inputs.
The word is certainly flung around with abandon, in situations where it makes no sense. And we often see "more sustainable" which is meaningless. At best, it means "less environmentally damaging" but still not sustainable.
I agree that renewable energy isn't renewable yet, and may never be. Wind turbines and solar panels are non-renewable renewable energy harvesters to use Tim Watkins' terminology. In the long run, agriculture by any means may not be possible. Agriculture was only possible because 10,000 years ago CO2 levels stabilised, meaning climate stabilised. It is now destabilising and may do so for millennia. John Gowdy has a paper called Our hunter-gatherer future, well worth a read.
I agree that hunting and gathering will be the normal way that humans will obtain their nutrition in the future. How we transition to that future is unknown. It will certainly be with a much lower population, perhaps through cannibalism. If humans are still around, there may be some point in the future that they will try some form of agriculture again, if the climate allows. Humans will forget what it did to the biosphere; after all, we know what it's doing now but are still trying to do more. So-called renewables are just a way to continue the destruction.
Good! Shared here, where we ARE working on that form of Agriculture.... https://www.facebook.com/groups/2046655862094973
10 to 1 is a very rough average across various food types. David Pimental found it was 40 to 1 for beef. It's lower in Ireland where I am as cattle are fed at pasture. On my own farm it's 4 to 1 farm to gate for beef. There's no standard methodology for EROI so results are vary wildly. Agree plant based food production is better and would return a positive EROI if using regenerative practices - my thesis examined this very topic.
This is a nonsense calculation as different foods require very different amounts of fossil fuels and fertilisers - with eating directly from the ground- significantly less than animal products.
Eating beef is absolutely unsustainable- but if the whole world was regenerative organic plant based (alot more people would work in agriculture)- it might be a very different story
https://jowaller.substack.com/p/yet-another-unsuccessful-attempt?utm_source=publication-search
This is a nonsense calculation as different foods require very different amounts of fossil fuels and fertilisers - with eating directly from the ground- significantly less than animal products.
Eating beef is absolutely unsustainable- but if the whole world was regenerative organic plant based (alot more people would work in agriculture)- it might be a very different story
https://jowaller.substack.com/p/yet-another-unsuccessful-attempt?utm_source=publication-search